tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post7188716178170623104..comments2024-03-11T02:25:25.123-05:00Comments on Living Low in the Lou: The decline may not be permacultured, part 2SLClairehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-15754731806362629642016-11-30T11:18:13.929-06:002016-11-30T11:18:13.929-06:00Thank you for your comment.
You say that money is...Thank you for your comment.<br /><br />You say that money isn't a problem, but I have to disagree with you on that, at least in the US at this time. I know plenty of people for whom the several thousand dollars required for the course, transportation to and from it, the books, and the lost income during the time of the course represents an impossibly large sum of money. It would have been for me until this year. (That's assuming they can get two weeks straight off work: most people in the US cannot as we don't have guaranteed vacation time here.) Borrowing money for something like a PcD course, given the lack of good info on quality of teachers and outcomes of grads here in the US, doesn't make sense compared to borrowing more money to get trained in a field that is known to have need of workers. It may be different in Australia, but I live in and write about the situation in the US.<br /><br />One of the things that bothers me about Pc is that it's largely funded by the PcD course. It strikes me as something of a pyramid scheme: instead of spending one's time actually doing the work of gardening and/or retrofitting one's home to use less energy and/or working with neighbors to achieve a desired change like reworking green space, one spends time designing others' landscapes and teaching others who are then encouraged to design stuff and teach others. But who is supposed to actually do the work of installing, maintaining, troubleshooting, and evaluating the designs? Folks that can afford to pay for a property design generally don't do the everyday maintenance work themselves, at least here in the US. I suspect a lot of the designs that do get installed languish. They don't get evaluated, so there is no way to pass on lessons to others. <br /><br />The other thing that bothers me is that I don't see evidence that Pc adds anything to what is already out there - and I say this as someone who spent almost 20 years hoping that it does. It's not that the techniques don't make sense; many (though not all) of them do. But you can find all of the techniques elsewhere, in the organic gardening literature, in the appropriate tech info from the 1970s and 1980s, in energy retrofit books and websites these days, and in books on making community-level change happen. Pc teachers don't do something magic in putting these together that any other person couldn't achieve by reading, doing, evaluating, asking advice of others, and so forth. SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-46417029230836570252016-10-12T19:19:43.986-05:002016-10-12T19:19:43.986-05:00I don't know how it's travelling in the US...I don't know how it's travelling in the US branch of permaculture, but in Australia the movement is changing lives for the better. You can read the books on permaculture, of course, but there's a different experience entirely, when you do a PDC course.<br /><br />Money is not the problem, so long as you look at it the right way. Spend a few hundred on a collection of books, for referring back to absorb such an extensive subject, over many years. Or pay a few thousand on a practical course, which will fast track the subject, because it's taught in a group environment, in the environment. Which is actually the better way to learn patterns. Plus it will put you in contact with others who have completed the course, for life. <br /><br />So instead of having a book you can refer back to, you have real life people who gather more experience they can share with you. The support for a student, transcends decades and the original price. As the teacher wants to continue to encourage their students, and the students who study together, want to encourage each other. It's a completely different deal and scope, than reading a book.<br /><br />I've gained my knowledge of permaculture by reading books too, but the influence of that (at this stage) is limited to the efforts on my landscape. What attending a PDC course will do however, is encourage students to make changes where they are. Which means, if you happen to live in the city, you don't have to uproot and go live in the country to grow some food. But you're going to be more visible, and possibly criticised, for not having the same tree lawns as everyone else.<br /><br />That just comes with the territory of challenging the status quo. And what needs to happened to adapt to a changing future. But there are more actions happening today, thanks to PDC courses and the permaculture movement. There are new entrepreneurs being made, using manual tools, sharing land they pay or in food production, and being located close to cities, ensuring there's greater food security locally – as they're selling the food they produce to city folk. <br /><br />These hard working, low capital entrepreneurs, couldn't have achieved that so quickly on their own. It was a successive line of paying PDC students, which allowed the movement to connect them all together, to form a cooperative. Sharing capital, locations and resources. And they only paid a pittance, for a way of life that Greer now has the luxury of. Thanks to his own community networks, which he contributes financially to as well.<br /><br />So from where I stand, I see the permacutlure movement being integral to the future, and it's actually making people's lives better today, in ways I haven't achieved from reading books about it. It's changing my landscape, but it's not changing how people are living their lives. That's what the movement is for, and it's funded by PDC's, in the same way churches are funded – although they get tax concessions being a not-for-profit. I think money from students paying for PDC's, get taxed as income. Ergo, they are supporting our nation financially as well.<br /><br />It's pretty interesting how the permaculture movement has evolved – in Australia a least.Chris https://www.blogger.com/profile/13715819899708384147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-42151318426470622912016-07-20T18:10:27.912-05:002016-07-20T18:10:27.912-05:00Thank you for your thoughtful comments!
I read yo...Thank you for your thoughtful comments!<br /><br />I read your comment about the quality of the PDC course being heavily dependent on the quality of the teachers as being another point in favor of not taking the PDC, at least not at this time in the US. Here in the US, I don't know of any way to learn what the quality of the teachers or their particular expertise is prior to attending a course. There doesn't seem to be an organization offering evaluations of teachers, something that I think would be very helpful. Outside of what any given teacher may say about him- or herself in their ads in PcA/PcD, or their published articles or books, potential students must guess at which teachers might make the best match to their interests and situation. Personally, I'd rather not guess, given the large cost of the courses plus transportation expenses, which for me would be considerable. That's another reason for me not taking the PDC ... although it also happens that I can learn well enough from books and my own experiments in this particular area. <br /><br />I do know of some things that I learn better under the instruction of a good teacher than just from books, however, so I agree that some students learn PCD better in person from a teacher than from books. Which brings me back to the desirability of having PDC teachers and courses evaluated or rated by some organization, hopefully by people other than the teachers themselves. Getting feedback from former students about their post PDC experiences applying or attempting to apply what they'd learned, perhaps even on-site visits to some of the students' works, could be a valuable part of that evaluation.<br /><br />I have read a few of Chris Smaje's posts on Resilience.org that I have liked. In fact, the title of this article was in part inspired by one of his recent posts that I thought was well argued. I'll check out the links you gave me above, and thank you for them!SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-53599449096684086912016-07-07T19:48:42.060-05:002016-07-07T19:48:42.060-05:00What got me going in the right direction was fruga...What got me going in the right direction was frugality, made necessary by quitting my corporate job in 1992. Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin's book Your Money or Your Life and Amy Dacyczyn's Tightwad Gazette books taught me how to live frugally, avoid waste, and do for myself whatever I could. These books were all about living well within limits, and I learned their lessons thoroughly. Like you, I'm surprised at the lack of discussion about frugality in Pc.<br /><br />Another flat place is central Illinois, where I lived during graduate school. Anyone who thinks Wyoming is big sky country has never driven across Illinois on I-70 or I-64. The land looks like a huge plate and the sky like a vast bowl sitting on top of it.SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-71483209616138066892016-07-07T19:38:32.441-05:002016-07-07T19:38:32.441-05:00May you get some sunshine soon! My 500 gallon rain...May you get some sunshine soon! My 500 gallon rain tank is re-filling now that we've gotten a couple of inches of rain this week. I'm glad your water tanks are full!<br /><br />Bane's article had another point I could have critiqued: he has a grid-tied solar array rather than a stand-alone system. Yet again, he's relying on public spending to keep his private system functional and not realizing how he gets the benefits but sticks us with the costs.<br /><br />I think my next post or so will be a documentation, with numbers and graphs (if I can get Excel to do the graphs for me) of how our energy usage has changed as a function of the different appropriate-tech style changes we've made. The value of having our house sealed and insulated will be obvious from a graph of natural gas usage over time.SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-77563418062058335272016-07-07T19:26:32.235-05:002016-07-07T19:26:32.235-05:00Same here!Same here!SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-27951018554231205842016-07-05T12:35:37.641-05:002016-07-05T12:35:37.641-05:00Hi Claire! Just stumbled across your blog thanks t...Hi Claire! Just stumbled across your blog thanks to Resilience, and went back and read part 1 first. Thanks so much for putting the time and effort into getting these thoughtful arguments out there!<br /><br />I agree with much, or even most of what you've said in both posts. I agree with Creighton, who commented that your analysis of the hellstrip piece was dead on target. And in this post, you've highlighted some really critical issues that, to my mind, point out some of the key deficits in the permaculture movement as presently structured.<br /><br />For my part, I find Greer's Green Wizardry to be a better overall approach, but I do think the ethics piece of permaculture, as well as the process, are really helpful as well, so basically I'm trying to use a melange of these two in my own life. <br /><br />The interesting thing is, your first post basically pointed out that Cetera had failed to following the design principles, and even the design techniques (his sector analysis was clearly missing a LOT of pieces). So I'd say what he was doing wasn't permaculture at all, and your analysis was helpful in demonstrating this.<br /><br />That said, I'm not sure you've proved your point about PDCs as a general rule being worse than the direct, experiential route. For one thing, PDCs are heavily dependent on the quality and experience of the teachers. So while some PDC's may be pie-in-the-sky, ideologically based 'political' experiences, others may be practically grounded, experiential in nature and very useful. And students come to these from very different experience bases. So a certain PDC may ignite a lifelong passion for doing 'good' permaculture in one student, while another might be better served to read Hemenway, Bane and the rest and doing their own thing.<br /><br />Also, we know that people learn in different ways, so I'd suggest that PDCs may be very helpful for some - while direct, experiential learning may be the way to go for others. I think, ultimately, both are needed, and I do think we should be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.<br /><br />What I think about your argument is incontrovertible, and needs to be seriously addressed by permaculture as a whole, is exactly the kind of mindset you are describing - the tendency of fresh PDC grads to go forth with what Chris Smaje has called 'PDC Syndrome' which is essentially this dogmatic mindset that really stands opposed to what's best and most useful about permaculture, at least as I understand it - I don't know if you read Chris, but he's right behind Greer as a must read for me. Check out:<br /><br />http://smallfarmfuture.org.uk/?p=491<br />and<br />http://smallfarmfuture.org.uk/?p=1019<br /><br />and be sure to check out his series of posts on Annuals vs Perennials. Extremely valuable stuff for permaculture folks to think about.<br /><br />At any rate, whether permaculture can actually prove to be of real service in addressing the kind of world that the converging crises of our time are leading us to, is a burning question, and I think the issues you have raised are really important ones for the permaculture movement as a whole to seriously look at, and I hope it's not too late, that this movement is not too far down the road of ideology, as you point out, and that it will find a way to stop perpetuating within itself the very same destructive patterns (ironically) that the systems it opposes do.gwizard43https://www.blogger.com/profile/07593620523101022936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-67561946232640050602016-07-05T08:35:25.350-05:002016-07-05T08:35:25.350-05:00Well, there you go again, dancing in my head!
S...Well, there you go again, dancing in my head! <br /><br />Since the beginning of civilization, humans have made a living by selling what they know; graduates of a permaculture design course are no different. After having paid a considerable amount of money to be evangelized to, they are chomping at the bit to convert others – and make money from selling it. That brings up something that doesn’t get mentioned much is that it’s hard to make real money from permaculture. Occasionally, you find some out there living without any money coming in, but 99% of us need the sporadic buck or two. You can't do that on a suburban lot. While I was fortunate to buy my diminutive home on the prairie for cash, I still have to pay the taxes, insurance, and utilities. These add up, and while I can grow a lot of food on my ½ acre (in a traditional veggie garden, BTW) I can’t grow it all. I would like an occasional banana or orange. Thus to also grow enough to sell to cover expenses would be difficult. Graduates of PDs seldom talk about the need to truly understand frugality. <br /><br />I, too, appreciate JMG’s insistence that we pay attention to the alternative energy concepts that proliferated in the 1970s. Instead of an expensive solar hot water system, I have a black hose in the summer and a big stock pot on the wood burner in the winter. For someone living alone it works just fine. My truck is 22 years old – it’s the last vehicle I’ll ever own. Recycled containers catching rain are cheaper than rent fancy equipment to dig swales. BTW, to insist that ALL land has a grade, obviously has never seen the Platte River Valley or a scraped flat city lot. <br /><br />Finally, I also appreciate the work of Peter Harper seen here: http://www.thelandmagazine.org.uk/articles/permaculture-big-rock-candy-mountain<br />Luddenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12432295283917484576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-60290908280534397332016-07-05T07:51:37.146-05:002016-07-05T07:51:37.146-05:00Hi Claire,
I absolutely agree with you. Small urb...Hi Claire,<br /><br />I absolutely agree with you. Small urban areas are probably best for growing annual nutrient dense crops and then recycling the minerals. Or for keeping smaller livestock like chickens, quail or rabbits as they're appropriate to urban areas. I suspect that there is a slavish desire to replicate existing models rather than taking the core principles of an idea and applying them appropriately to a particular setting. You are so very correct in your analysis.<br /><br />I've met people down here that have pursued the sort of plant arrangement in an urban setting that you referred too and the plants just don't seem to have enough space to my mind. The competition for minerals, light and water seems too intense for the plants to be very productive.<br /><br />And, I absolutely hear you about the houses. You know, most people surprise me because when they discover that I built the house here, they always ask me if it is a mud brick house. That question is very telling because what they are stating is that things must look a certain way if they are to be considered to be alternative.<br /><br />Oh my, and insulation. I have had people that I have known for many years get very angry with me when I suggest that heavy use of insulation in buildings is a good idea to reduce the transfer of heat and cold between a house and its local environment.<br /><br />And the hopes pinned on renewable energy systems are very similar as today the weather conditions were so poor that my solar power system made only 0.54kW/h for the entire day and it is bucketing down tonight. At least the water tanks are full!<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />ChrisFernglade Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950962122594709186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-79626148614544869282016-07-03T23:43:24.080-05:002016-07-03T23:43:24.080-05:00Excellent series of articles Lou. What you say is ...Excellent series of articles Lou. What you say is reinforced by my interactions with the modern Green. Well-intentioned, but completely part of the system they claim to want changed. I sympathise with them as it wasn't that long ago I to believed in a shiny, green future if only we all just tried hard enough.<br /><br />I try to recall the exact path that led me to acknowledge the EROEI trap that lies ahead of us, and deploy those arguments in my discussions. But I never seem to make much progress. I think the problem is with squeezing years of reading and observations into one, short and partially drunk conversation....Damohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09874193098681605362noreply@blogger.com