tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post8618125076514481522..comments2024-03-11T02:25:25.123-05:00Comments on Living Low in the Lou: Perennial plants and a promise produce a new projectSLClairehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-65639293666648265552018-04-23T16:28:19.651-05:002018-04-23T16:28:19.651-05:00The edible gardening book and some of the other pe...The edible gardening book and some of the other permaculture books that I have read discuss the ways that forest soil differs from garden soil. It's really interesting and very relevant to growing fruit and nut trees. Vegetables, since they are closer to pioneer plants, should do well on compost alone. Adding humates, as I'm doing, should allow my soil to hold on to anions (sulfate, phosphate) and cations (calcium, potassium) better than it does now (being a glacial loess, my soil is young and not all that nutritious, but it has good structure and texture). I could add clay to hold onto cations but it won't hold onto anions.<br /><br />I don't add any amendments at all when I plant trees. I've always chosen trees well suited to this area and they have always done well enough this way.SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-62671617380365401902018-04-23T16:20:44.631-05:002018-04-23T16:20:44.631-05:00Yes, I do know about the difference between compos...Yes, I do know about the difference between compost and humus; I have a book on edible forest gardening that goes into some detail on the subject. I've been adding humates to my garden soil in an attempt to retain some of the minerals that I add. So far I haven't noticed much difference, but I have been adding them at a very low rate.SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-51879184931801685062018-04-18T11:15:45.489-05:002018-04-18T11:15:45.489-05:00Unfortunately, you can't build up humus in you...Unfortunately, you can't build up humus in your soil by just throwing compost or compostable plant material on it or digging it in. That's the reason why potting soils and such usually still contain peat, which contains a lot of naturally grown humus. Humus formation is still badly understood by science – it's one of those slow, holistic processes where the entire biosphere has to work together, and humans can't yet replicate the process artificially. Forest soils (and long-standing grasslands – perennial grasses have large root systems and do shed quite a lot of root material whenever the above-ground parts get eaten by roaming herds of herbivores; peat soils normally were built up by grass decay under acidic/anaerobic circumstances that inhibit most normal composting bacteria) contain primarily humus; garden topsoil and other soils often disturbed by human work contain mainly compost, even if they look just as nicely black and have a high carbon content. [Though I've read that at least some of the functions of humus can be fulfilled by charcoal and/or clay particles, since they have microscopic pores that can adsorb water and nutrients and hold them for a while. Adsorption isn't quite as good as chelation, but it's better than just letting nutrients wash out with the rain. This is part of the reason the "terra preta" resulting from centuries of slash-and-burn agriculture (and artificially enriched with pottery dust) in tropical regions is so fertile.]<br /><br />By the way, this basic difference between forest soil and garden soil is also the reason why new plantings of trees in the garden can benefit from an inoculation with a bucket of forest soil. No matter how generous you are with the compost in the planting hole, a garden ecosystem just doesn't contain the fungi that the tree might need to really flourish without constant fertilizer inputs. Unless your garden recently still was a forest, obviously.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-37643197937738553302018-04-18T11:09:31.617-05:002018-04-18T11:09:31.617-05:00Hi, I don't know if there's a point in sti...Hi, I don't know if there's a point in still responding to this two years later, but I'm sick in bed, so I've got the time...<br /><br />One point I get the feeling you (and the writers of most English-language gardening books I've ever read) may not be entirely clear about is that "humus" and "compost" are not the same thing at all. Both are measured in tests checking for the organic matter content / carbon content of the soil, but chemically, they're behaving very differently. <br /><br />Compost is created through bacterial decay of plant matter (and non- microbiological activity like that of earthworms, if you don't hot-compost). The mineral nutrients in compost are quite readily water-soluble and thus wash out (which is why you have to add the usual 1-inch mulch layer of compost for fertilization purposes every year, and refresh the nutrients in the usual compost-in-place structure of raised beds), and the carbon compounds will be quickly eaten and turned into carbon dioxide by other soil microbes, given access to oxygen (which is ensured through tilling / soil aeration) . Try mixing fresh compost and sand in a pot, e.g. for and watering it regularly for a few months – soon, you will have a layer of mostly pure sand at the top, because the compost washes down / gets used up. The structure of such artificially created soil mixes doesn't hold together like naturally grown topsoil does.<br /><br />In contrast, humus is created through slower decay of plant matter by soil fungi. These fungi usually live in symbiosis with perennial plants (most often trees and other woody plants) and they certainly need the soil to be undisturbed for years in order to grow their vast underground mycelium. In humus, the carbon is stored in long, complicated chains (humins and humic acids), which don't readily dissolve in water, and can be stable against microbial feeding for hundreds of years. Humus glues silicate soil particles together to form the typical "top soil" structure, it stores a lot of water (kind of like a gel does), and the various organic compounds can chelate metal ions - that is, bind them and release them in a way that keeps the concentration in solution (in the water between soil particles that the plants take up with their roots) mostly stable. So with humus, you can have a "pantry" of nutrients, but with compost you don't (or only for a year or so, depending on how much rain you get). <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-85310797568567530852016-07-07T18:23:40.297-05:002016-07-07T18:23:40.297-05:00For me it doesn't seem to spread nearly as fas...For me it doesn't seem to spread nearly as fast as, say, groundnuts, or strawberries for that matter, though it does spread. What really impresses me about comfrey is that it can do something I haven't seen any other plant do: it can out-compete zoysia and bermuda grasses. I don't know where you live so I don't know if you are familiar with them. Here in St. Louis we live near the northern edge of where these warm-season lawn grasses can be used. They don't green up till May and they turn brown as soon as we get the first frost in November. They will crawl clear across a concrete sidewalk on the thatch they make. But many folks like them because they don't grow as fast as cool-season lawn grasses, they stay green on less water, and they out-compete weeds. I have too much of them getting into my garden beds and thought I could use the comfrey to good advantage against them. But I'll keep your point in mind and try just a little at first, in case they go crazy when they have easier neighbors to bully.SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-23882292734970129682016-05-19T11:03:47.933-05:002016-05-19T11:03:47.933-05:00Does comfrey not take over everything in your clim...Does comfrey not take over everything in your climate? Here, I would not plant it where I did not want it forever and ever,amen, as those wonderful deep roots will throw up more comfrey even if the tops are removed. I have some near my heaps so I can cut and compost the upper growth.Lanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13175229460841379583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-79437835278726964042016-04-27T15:33:10.850-05:002016-04-27T15:33:10.850-05:00Hi Pam,
Sorry for not commenting for so long! I h...Hi Pam,<br /><br />Sorry for not commenting for so long! I haven't yet established my own perennial pastures ... too busy planting the cool-weather crops, then attempting to reclaim the herb bed from self-sown but out of place seedlings and weeds. While I'd prefer to start the pastures before spring ends, the seed packet says fall seeding is acceptable. <br /><br />Comfrey is generally sold as root cuttings in early spring. Check with an herb seller for them. I have moved small but established plants, keeping them well-watered until they catch hold.SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-39156891161645843182016-03-29T09:00:20.101-05:002016-03-29T09:00:20.101-05:00Hi, Claire:
I've actually been working on my ...Hi, Claire:<br /><br />I've actually been working on my perennial pasture a lot lately, when I probably should have been working more on the veg beds. I hope I can find some comfrey plants. I'm tired of growing all these babies from seed.<br /><br />PamPam in Virginiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00895842137691734477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-90673661269700274892016-03-28T20:39:37.013-05:002016-03-28T20:39:37.013-05:00Hi Pam,
Right now I am planning to follow Johnny&...Hi Pam,<br /><br />Right now I am planning to follow Johnny's recommendations, which I will have to look up again when I get ready to sow the beds (soon!), but it will basically be tossing seeds willy-nilly. Except that I will probably transplant comfrey here and there into each bed before tossing out the seeds. But I will mention what I actually do when I report on it later on.<br /><br />I think Joe's soil needs so much calcium and has such a low pH because he tilled in mostly oak leaves. They seem to make the soil quite acid when they break down. <br /><br />My family lived in Raleigh, NC for two years when I was in my teens, and I well remember the red clay soil there! Clay is only bad in excess. Unfortunately, that's probably what you have: too much of a good thing. <br /><br />If you haven't had your soil tested, I recommend doing so. Your extension service probably does soil testing and makes recommendations on what and how much to add to remedy deficiencies, if you'd prefer to have someone else make the recommendations for you. I should have done that myself; as it was, I added greensand for potassium for several years, not realizing that greensand has magnesium in it. Maybe that's where at least some of the excess magnesium in my soil came from. Live and learn ...SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-18303218013664589132016-03-15T08:11:28.253-05:002016-03-15T08:11:28.253-05:00Hi, Claire!
I certainly like your pantry analogy;...Hi, Claire!<br /><br />I certainly like your pantry analogy; it helps a lot in my understanding of how minerals are held in the soil.<br /><br />And I really, really like the pollinator pasture idea. It appears to incorporate the best of all worlds. I'm so glad that I read this before we finalized our vegetable bed plans. I shall now reserve one as a pollinator pasture, with at least part of it as perennials. Are you going to sow seed willy-nilly or plant it in rows, or use mostly transplants?<br /><br />I was wondering about Joe's calcium rates. I suspect (a dangerous thing to do) that our soil is calcium deficient, but I don't want to add lime to it and upset the pH, which seems pretty good; I'm glad that you reminded me of oyster shells. I feel a bit ashamed as Charlottesville has so many garden and farm shops here, that I think I could probably find any amendment that I needed. <br /><br />It is so interesting that you need to add clay (maybe) to your soil as our soil is practically all red clay. Where it is not amended with compost, and walked upon, it is like bricks. We have actually been known to use a pick axe when first breaking it up, unless it's very wet, in which case it is a dense goo. Sometimes we use a post hole digger and dig deep and fairly wide holes and plant in them just as though they were pots. The drainage is terrible. All looking much better within the garden itself now. Though the hugelkulture beds that I set up in the fall seem to have hardly broken down; probably there's good stuff in the bottom of them.<br /><br />PamPam in Virginiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00895842137691734477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-49616679499637883532016-03-12T17:21:10.383-06:002016-03-12T17:21:10.383-06:00Thanks again, Chris! I think that the root of the ...Thanks again, Chris! I think that the root of the problem (so to speak) is trying to grow annual plants that like disturbed soil in the same place year after year after year. Nature doesn't work that way, as we both know. Some localized disturbance happens, the annuals pop up there and start doing their soil repair thing, while the rest of the undisturbed area is, in a humid temperate climate like mine, growing perennial plants of various kinds and sizes. After awhile our disturbed area starts sprouting up in perennials as the soil gets better, while some localized disturbance occurs somewhere else and the annuals pop up there. Our vegetables are those annuals, ecologically speaking. <br /><br />Swidden agriculture, or slash-and-burn, mimics Nature's disturbance pattern and looks like one long term sustainable way to grow food. This requires having enough land to allow a considerable amount of it to not grow annual food crops every year. Perennial food crops look like another way to garden sustainably. In temperate climates, unfortunately, there aren't yet any commercial perennial grain crops. The Land Institute in Salina, Kansas is working on developing them and has some promising results. It would also help if there were a wider selection of perennial vegetables for temperate climates, and I think a few people are working along these lines. Until these happen, good cover-cropping practice and small-scale rotation of vegetable and grain growing areas with pollinator pastures and/or small perennial fruit crops seem like good possibilities to pursue.SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-55905231212179372452016-03-12T16:52:52.300-06:002016-03-12T16:52:52.300-06:00I know what you mean ... I bought 50 pound sacks o...I know what you mean ... I bought 50 pound sacks of both Calphos and aragonite from Fedco in Maine, and winced at the shipping cost ($121 for shipping, more than twice what the two sacks cost put together). And that was for an 1800 square foot garden, and I will go through most of each this year. I shudder to think what it would cost for you.<br /><br />If I knew where to get these materials locally in 50 pound sacks, I'd buy them locally. However, even the small farm supply store nearby (there are recreational horse owners on some of the large suburban lots in this area) doesn't carry these two materials at all, much less in 50 pound bags. I used to be able to get 50 pound bags of cottonseed meal from them, but not last summer or fall, and they didn't have them a few weeks ago when I asked. I ended up buying that from a place in Washington state, which doesn't help us here in the Midwest in regard to shipping cost. Nor did the store have soybean meal in stock. I'm hoping the nearby Rural King store might carry that for folks who want to mix their own chicken feed. I haven't checked into it yet, because I still have some from last year and I know I can order it from Fedco as long as I'm willing to pay for shipping.<br /><br />I wish I knew what we could do to obtain locally these nutrients in the quantities serious gardeners need. IIRC Solomon suggested going to the large farm supply houses for 50 pound sacks. That might work for me since the Illinois corn and soybean fields lie just across the river, a few miles' drive from here. I have a bit of a mental block about that, like I'd be trespassing or something, but it's worth a try. For you, though, I'm not sure if that option is available. At any rate, for now I'd suggest trying Rural King or another such big-box store catering to customers in rural area or the same farm supply stores that the agribusiness farmers use. Thanks for mentioning this so I remember to share anything I learn about it later on.SLClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307602613058790026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-26407010943122910582016-03-08T04:46:48.316-06:002016-03-08T04:46:48.316-06:00Hi Claire,
Thanks for taking the time and resourc...Hi Claire,<br /><br />Thanks for taking the time and resources towards obtaining these lab results for your soils. They are quite insightful aren't they?<br /><br />Your explanation regarding TCEC was very clear and the results are very interesting! Yes, the soil in your strawberry, asparagus, and raspberry beds would also very likely not ever be tilled or disturbed greatly so the results are really consistent with observations regarding digging in vegetable beds and absolutely all those plants have huge root systems which can adequately forage for minerals in the surrounding soils.<br /><br />Cover cropping is a great idea, and I was reading today about people that cut annual plants at the soil surface leaving the root systems in the ground and then they applied compost on top of that so I may give that experiment a go down the road a bit.<br /><br />Your pollinator pasture sounds like an excellent idea. Nice work. Yes, I intersperse many long lived hardy plants into the orchard and garden beds such as comfrey, borage, mints etc. and simply just cut them back as and when needed (without removing the root systems). The bees have been relying on those plants for pollen and nectar so that was the reason for not removing them more than anything else. It was chance rather than design, so I’m incorporating your observations into the garden here.<br /><br />Thanks again, and it was my pleasure to assist and I have also appreciated the excellent insights gained!<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />ChrisFernglade Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950962122594709186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5138459729531944998.post-680784295110021902016-03-07T08:23:02.707-06:002016-03-07T08:23:02.707-06:00Thanks you for this discussion, however, I’m going...Thanks you for this discussion, however, I’m going somewhere slightly different. I, too, have read Solomon’s book, and moreover, I have a degree in horticulture and can confirm all of his science, despite many organic adherents’ idea of just add compost. I, too, have done my soil tests with Logan Labs and analysis with Grow Abundant; in fact, I had my whole garden class do theirs. However, we live in central Nebraska – a long way from anywhere and trying to find aragonite or CalPhos locally is impossible. We tried Internet search for either in quantity within reasonable driving distance in NE. Shipping 50# bags is too expensive. I finally acquired some CalPhos, but only because I was visiting relatives somewhere else. You might want to discuss this aspect of where to find these products. It may be reasonable for folks with a 500 sq. ft. urban garden, but I have an ½ acre, and other may too.Luddenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12432295283917484576noreply@blogger.com